What's your least favorite craft to dogfight with?

[Highball]

Since I have only played WC 1-3 with any seriousness, plus a little bit of 4, my choice here is going to be somewhat limited. Anyway, which is the one fighter you just hate having to face? The one you see on the radar and go: "Man..."

Mine:

WC1: Probably the Jalthi with the Gratha as a close second. The darn things take 30 firk-ding-blasted shots of full guns plus 12 missiles to kill. Ok, I'm exaggerating, but it seems like it takes a ton of hits to take out, which is made worse when 4 of them are concentrating all on you, and your wingman is worthless. Gratha being a close second.

WC2: The Strakha, just for the sheer annoying factor of it cloaking. Of course, the Jalkehi and Grikath are close seconds for having to beat the living daylights out of them just to take it out.

WC3: I don't think there are any ships I hated fighting in this game. The Bloodfang or Vaktoth, maybe.

You?

[cff]

WC1: Rapier. Come on - the Jalthi is fun, especially if flying the Dralthi. Just fly in between its shots...
WC2: Grikath, nasty rear cannon there.
WC3: Dunno, they were all ok. I hate the stealth missile.
WC4: Well I guess the Dragon, if you exclude the fight with Maniac in the Hellcat
WCP: Lamprey - they are weak, but a pain to finally get.
P1: Drone
P2: Skull - I hate them, hate them, hate them. Too small, too nimble. Just a huge waste of time to finally sink some shot in.

Worst enemy ever: P2, Skull

[Aginor]

WC1: Gratha. A lot or armor, and hard to hit from some angles.
WC2: Grikath. Because of the rear cannon
WC3: K'ha'haf (man I hated those mines), but the Paktahn were good, too. (rear cannon hit very hard)
WC4: No special one, maybe the Dragon. But that wasn't so bad.
WCP: Devil Ray, but since this is a kind of a "ace" it doesn't count. So I'd say the Squid.
P1: Drone
P2: Skull. Definately! I agree with cff:

Worst enemy ever: P2, Skull

[Mace]

WC1; Jalthi, when they get the drop on you... Gratha coming in second.

WC2; Grikhath, they pack a hell of a punch

WC3; The rockfighters

WC4; The Arrow

WCP; Devil Ray

[frostytheplebe]

WC1: Rapier

WC2: Gothri (This thing won't die and its rear gunner is as leathal as the forward.

WC3: Sorthak... again won't die.

WC4: Bearcat, don't know why, they just annoy me.

WCP: Stingray... How many missiles did I have to waste to kill this thing, plus he's a cocky son-of-a-bitch.

[-danr-]

Originally Posted by Mace

WC2; Grikath, they pack a hell of a punch

Certainly agree with this one, last time I played WC2 I couldn't believe how long it took to nail 'Kur' in his Grik....

[Ilanin]

WC1: Rapier, though the Krant has a certain "oh go away already" factor due to not being remotely dangerous but taking a while to chew through.
WC2: Gothri, rear turrets are annoying
WC3: In an Arrow, the Paktahn; in a T-bolt, the Vaktoth, just because of irksome AI bait-and-switch tactics. The Ekapshi would be really annoying if you ever faced it in something that wasn't an Excalibur
WC4: Anything firing a missile at me is my least favourite craft, but yeah, the Bearcat is certainly up there.
Prophecy/Secret Ops: Actually the TCS Cerberus is usually my least favourite craft due to it being uncannily good at hitting me with its plasma cannon. But probably the Remora/Ray due to making it impossible to tell if anything actually dangerous is shooting at me.

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

WC 1: Rapier / Hhriss / Gratha, though sometimes Salthis could be a real pain. I thought every enemy was some kind of threat, except the Dralthi MK I.

WC 2: Grikath and Gothri. Very powerful weapons.

WC 3: Difficult, I don't have that much memory of it...but I thin the Pakthan's rear turret really annoyed me. And the K'ha'haf

WC 4: Arrow and Banshee

WCP: Devil Ray or Squid because you always had to chase it.

P1: Stiletto and Dralthis and Gothris. First ones were difficult to hit and the other ones always took rather long to destroy.

P2: Skull - one of the coolest but also most annoying enemies ever.

[Farbourne]

Not sure if we're allowed to count SM and SO, because the answer changes, but here's my take:

WC1: The Gratha. It would be the Rapier, but since that was a "special case" and not something that regularly showed up on my radar, I'm not counting it. Salthi and Dralthi were pathetic, Krant were only annoying due to their sheer numbers, and Jalthi, while dangerous, could be easily outflown and brought down if you were careful. But the Gratha wins, if only for that mission in Kurusawa.

SM1/2: The Hhriss. Not the worst fighter ever to face, but significantly more dangerous than any other cat fighter in the WC1 era. The Dralthi II is a close second, only because its incredible numbers combined with its mass drivers made big furballs a bad day.

(In general, I think WC1 had the most well-balanced array of enemy fighters...no one type stood out to me as "pathetic" or a "superfighter").

WC2: The Grikhath. Frikkin rear gun. Also, small target profile, thick armor, and you had to go after them because they were a threat to capships.

SO1/2: With all due respect to Drakhai-flown Sartha, which were nasty, let it be known for all time that I HATE GOTHRI. Gothri are evil. By the way, did I express my dislike of Gothri? (Imagine how happy I was when I got to Standoff Ep 2 and found that mission where you're dogfighting like 30 Gothri, which are just as hateworthy in Standoff as they are in SO).

For the record, I never understood what the problem was with Jalkehi. This seemed the most broken fighter in WC2...they never really posed a threat to me, blew up really easy, couldn't hit the broad side of a dreadnought, and were all around the thing I found easiest to take down. Must be the biggest discrepancy between what a fighter was supposed to be and what it was.

WC3: Vaktoth. Far and away the best craft the Cats had. It was too heavily armored and shielded for an Arrow to be comfortable against (and it had a rear gun as bad as a Grikhath). It was too fast and maneuverable to keep up with in a Thunderbolt or a Longbow, and it was evasive enough to avoid a missile or two, and tough enough to take a few missile hits, so you couldn't just lob FF's at them to get rid of them. Strangely, the best fighter against it was the Hellcat, which, as far as I can tell, is the only reason why one would knowingly choose a Hellcat in WC3.

Incidentally, does anyone else think that the Vaktoth design might have grown out of the successful Grikhath design? The Vaktoth looks kind of similar in shape, and both serve similar roles--a heavy, powerful, jump-equipped attack fighter with decent speed and maneuverability for its size, lots of firepower, and a nasty reargun.

Never had much trouble with either the Rockships or the Sorthaks--yes, they took a while to kill, but weren't all that threatening.

WC4: Leaving out the Lances (a.k.a. "Dragons"), which, as superfighters, were obviously the toughest, I would say worst fighters were whichever non-pirate fighters outnumbered you the most. The AI in WC4 was good enough so that ANY of the BW or Confed fighters, if they outnumbered you, were nasty. I would rather face two Lances than four Hellcats or Banshees.

WCP: Devil Ray, obviously, but if we're ignoring that, it would be the (blue) Manta. Morays and Skates (broken up) and Remora were no threat whatsoever, and were just killboard padding. Likeways with Rays and Lampreys. Unbroken Skates had to be tackled because they were a threat to capships, but didn't scare me in my fighter. Stingrays were bad, and Red Mantas were a bit of a threat both in a dogfight and versus capships, but blue Mantas were both tough in a dogfight, well armored, fast, maneuverable, and usually met in astounding numbers.

[Flashpoint]

WC1 has to be the Gratha. Tough and well armed make for a bad situation. I never really found Jalthi too formidable. They're only really a problem if you rush them (stupid, stupid, stupid!) or fly straight and level for more then 5 seconds. Most enemy wings are made up multiples of 2 ships who stick together, so with Jalthi I found it easy if you burn away, turn, see which are engaging your wingman, then go help him out with those two before turning back to the second pair.

[Highball]

Originally Posted by cff

Come on - the Jalthi is fun, especially if flying the Dralthi. Just fly in between its shots...

Every time I tried to roll to fly between the shots when a Jalthi was opening up on me head on, I would get chewed up. Of course, it's been awhile since I have tried to employ the tactic, so it might work for me now, but then ... ugh.

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

Originally Posted by Farbourne

(...) The Dralthi II is a close second, only because its incredible numbers combined with its mass drivers made big furballs a bad day.

(In general, I think WC1 had the most well-balanced array of enemy fighters...no one type stood out to me as "pathetic" or a "superfighter").

(...)

For the record, I never understood what the problem was with Jalkehi. This seemed the most broken fighter in WC2...they never really posed a threat to me, blew up really easy, couldn't hit the broad side of a dreadnought, and were all around the thing I found easiest to take down. Must be the biggest discrepancy between what a fighter was supposed to be and what it was.

(...)

I fully agree with all these points.


I loved fighting Griktaths in a Rapier in WC 2: you could just stay out of range and pummel them with your powerful guns.

[Vinman]

Jincilla Skull, Jincilla Skull, Jincilla Skull. I'd never hated seeing a particular fighter so much before or since the Jincilla Skull.

At least I usually had either a Behemoth or a Nukem with me. Gahh, I hated, hated, hated those damned Jincilla Skulls!

[Dyret]

Grikath, Gothri, and Vaktoth... rear turrets are bad for you.

[Quarto]

Originally Posted by Vinman

Jincilla Skull, Jincilla Skull, Jincilla Skull. I'd never hated seeing a particular fighter so much before or since the Jincilla Skull.

At least I usually had either a Behemoth or a Nukem with me. Gahh, I hated, hated, hated those damned Jincilla Skulls!

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Overall, I hated P2 (the gameplay - the story I thought was fairly neat), and the Jincilla Skull was one of the contributing reasons. Maybe not quite in the same league as getting stuck at one navpoint for half an hour because of random-and-potentially-infinite enemies, but...

[Vinman]

Originally Posted by Quarto

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Overall, I hated P2 (the gameplay - the story I thought was fairly neat), and the Jincilla Skull was one of the contributing reasons. Maybe not quite in the same league as getting stuck at one navpoint for half an hour because of random-and-potentially-infinite enemies, but...

Aww, I love P2, I just loathe Jincilla Skulls with a passion that will never die.

[frostytheplebe]

Originally Posted by Vinman

Aww, I love P2, I just loathe Jincilla Skulls with a passion that will never die.

I thought the story was... weird to say the least.

[Aeronautico]

In WC3, the Vaktoths were a nightmare. Their rear turrets spell death if you don't play it safe.

But that was way back. Now, I'd say the Paktahn. Their rear turrets are even worse. And if you don't have a strong craft, they won't go down quickly.

[Vinman]

Originally Posted by frostytheplebe

I thought the story was... weird to say the least.

That's part of why I liked it so much, it was like being in a bizarre bit of brit sci-fi.

[frostytheplebe]

Originally Posted by Vinman

That's part of why I liked it so much, it was like being in a bizarre bit of brit sci-fi.

Yeah, you only see stuff like that on the Sci-Fi Channel in their low budget films.

[ChrisReid]

Originally Posted by Quarto

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Overall, I hated P2 (the gameplay - the story I thought was fairly neat), and the Jincilla Skull was one of the contributing reasons. Maybe not quite in the same league as getting stuck at one navpoint for half an hour because of random-and-potentially-infinite enemies, but...

Originally Posted by Vinman

Aww, I love P2, I just loathe Jincilla Skulls with a passion that will never die.

What about proximity missiles? The Skull was a tough fighter to hit with your guns, but proximity missiles took care of them decently well. The big turrets on the Trisystem Capships were pretty tough to get around though.

[Quarto]

Originally Posted by Vinman

Aww, I love P2, I just loathe Jincilla Skulls with a passion that will never die.

Yeah, most people more or less like P2, or at least dislike it less passionately than I do. I utterly detest it, I have to say - I never even tried playing it a second time, in spite of the fun and interesting storyline. I hate it when people use the word "broken" in regards to gameplay, but that's really the way I feel about P2's gameplay. I was bothered most of all by the random encounters that could get you stuck in one place until death, and by the terrible, terrible ship progression - all those ships to choose from, and none of them worth a dime except for the most expensive one.

There are, however, two things that especially ruined my experience, and which imply that I never really had the full picture of the game - firstly, the fact that I am a mouse player, and P2's mouse mode was terrible. Secondly, I only ever had the Deluxe (Win95) edition, where the frame limiting mechanism is broken, and the game ran too fast on modern machines. I used a program to slow it down to acceptable speeds, but obviously, this came at a price, the gameplay was nowhere near as smooth as it should have been.

[ChrisReid]

I do think that P2 had way too many ships for its own good, but there were a couple of good stepping stones. The Straith & Shaman are what most people spend their starting time on, and then they end at the Danrik or Freij II. I'd also recommend trying the Icarius, Drakkar, Duress & Heretic. If these were all that you could fly, we'd probably be talking about how great the P2 ships were, debating the merits of one or another, making paper models of them, etc., but unfortunately, they all blur together. Who can tell the difference between a Skecis and a Kalrechi? (weirdo names, too...)

[t.c.cgi]

I hate fighting the WC2 Bloodfang. There's no other fight so boring because it always turns into me spinning around like a top in the Saber to keep the ugly little thing on the screen. I did it three times, now I just hit the explode button on that furball.

[Gimpy]

Originally Posted by ChrisReid

I do think that P2 had way too many ships for its own good, but there were a couple of good stepping stones. The Straith & Shaman are what most people spend their starting time on, and then they end at the Danrik or Freij II. I'd also recommend trying the Icarius, Drakkar, Duress & Heretic.

Personally I never saw the merit of the Icarius but gladly bought the Heretic whenever I played through. Only issue with it is the spacing of the guns so off center, trying to down a Skull without missiles was like trying to swat a fly with a baseball bat.

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

Me neither for the Icarius but the Drakkar, Duress and Heretic were all once in my possession before I got to the Freij II. What I never understood was why the Danrik is more expensive than the Freij II despite being inferior. But I think it's accessible earlier in the game than the Freij II. They're both rather ugly though.

Hmm, I think I should have used the proximity missiles more often...

[ChrisReid]

The Freij is a box, but the Danrik was relatively sleek. The Freij II was a kind of bonus ship. It's got the best stats and it's even cheaper than the Danrik, but does not appear until the news bulletin announces its release.

[Flashpoint]

I've just started replaying SM2 and am thinking that Hhriss, while not as armoured as Gratha, are much more dangerous.
Only met them in pairs so far. Not looking forward to wings of 4+

Edit: Just checked out the ships database and that seems to be wrong. Strange, because I always felt it took longer to chew through a Gratha than a Hhriss. Maybe the Hhriss' larger size meant it was simply easier to score hits with a full spread of guns

[Wedge009]

Originally Posted by t.c.cgi

I hate fighting the WC2 Bloodfang. There's no other fight so boring because it always turns into me spinning around like a top in the Saber to keep the ugly little thing on the screen. I did it three times, now I just hit the explode button on that furball.

That's why you're supposed to make some distance between you before closing the gap again. Jazz exhibited a similar fighting style too, though I suppose the Bloodfang is superior to the Sabre and Morningstar in some aspects.

[JasonRocZ]

I didn't mind P2 really...I rather liked it... The gameplay at the time for me at least was different from any of the other Wing Commanders I played, and I think that was one of the selling points for me...It gave a real eerie feel to the game as you were in a really futuristic/odd/strange/exceedingly different universe than our own, I have to say that I never knew what was going to happen next....Although, the story for me was a lil hard to follow. I did and still do rather enjoy it....Except when I see Christopher Walken in the game I always think "I need more Cowbell" or him singing that Lady Gaga "Poker Face" song....either or are hilarious, good Youtube material.

Oh and my least favorite craft to fight of all time... would have to be.... Grikaths....It always seemed like they had a set of "SUPER" Neutron guns up the butt. Or an extreeeeemely accurate turret

[t.c.cgi]

Originally Posted by Wedge009

That's why you're supposed to make some distance between you before closing the gap again. Jazz exhibited a similar fighting style too, though I suppose the Bloodfang is superior to the Sabre and Morningstar in some aspects.

Oh, I know. I did it the proper way the first two times. And all of the AI behaves similarly. Sartha's can hug pretty tight and spin around in your blind spots all day... but they tend to explode with a shot or two.

[ChrisReid]

Originally Posted by JasonRocZ

I didn't mind P2 really...I rather liked it... The gameplay at the time for me at least was different from any of the other Wing Commanders I played, and I think that was one of the selling points for me...It gave a real eerie feel to the game as you were in a really futuristic/odd/strange/exceedingly different universe than our own, I have to say that I never knew what was going to happen next....Although, the story for me was a lil hard to follow. I did and still do rather enjoy it....

As the years have gone by, I'm really happy that this is the prevailing feel for the game now. I hear it summarized like this quite a bit today. The really exotic feel and a couple of the cumbersome bits really irked the internet back in 1996. People were freaking out. I suppose the same happens/happened with Prophecy, the Movie, Arena and everything else too, to varying degrees, but Privateer 2's boldly different setting was shock to some at the time.

Originally Posted by JasonRocZ

Oh and my least favorite craft to fight of all time... would have to be.... Grikaths....It always seemed like they had a set of "SUPER" Neutron guns up the butt. Or an extreeeeemely accurate turret

Just like the Neutrons in our Broadsword, which seemed very strong.

[Mjr. Whoopass]

WC4 cloaking Arrows. I remember the defending Melek mission in particular where I learned to dread those.

[Dundradal]

I've always had a dislike for WC3 Vaktoths.

In Standoff, I can not stand the Krant. It's such a bastard.

[Lt.Overload]

Remoras! Ugh, so much trouble over a little...bug...

[NinjaLA]

the talons in standoff really give me fits. I'm not sure why.

My least favorite fighter to dogfight in or with has got to be the Rapier though.

[Aeronautico]

the talons in standoff really give me fits. I'm not sure why.

You too, huh? I know exactly what you mean!

The Talons are a bitch to deal with. The fact that they come in large numbers and glide about like the end is coming means that they always get a chance to bite away at you. It's like shaking off a pack of junkyard dogs, dammit! I had to replay the assault on the pirate base like fifty times because of them.

It's like Admiral Tolwyn once said: "You got a junkyard dog at your heels, you turn around and kick it in the chops."

[Highball]

After facing some Rapiers recently, I have to add Rapiers to my list. Absolutely no point in trying to take them on if there are more than 3, and even then, I'd consider trying to run. Unless you're IN a Rapier yourself, you have no hope of outmaneuvering them, and they will almost always outgun and outshield you.

[Ilanin]

As for Standoff, well, nothing will ever quite be as annoying as trying to take out a Vatari in a Stiletto. But if we ignore the Vatari as a supership, then there's no single fighter in Standoff that really annoys me - the problems in Standoff are usually numbers and tactics. Sartha with their dumbfires deserve a mention in the other direction, because I love the challenge. They're made of cardboard but trying to take out the full wing before half of my pilots eat a dumbfire or two is hard in all the right ways.

[Mace]

As for "Getting a full wing", does the vision engine damage the surrounding ships when one explodes in their proximity? I was recently playing through "Star trek - shattered universe"(terrible space-flight physics btw), And in one mission you could gain a tactical advantage by blowing up a ship when it is close to another, the explosion of the first ship would be powerfull enough to blast through the shields and armor of the second and have that explode as well...

[Ilanin]

Having just started playing through WC3 on Nightmare, I would like to note:

GODSDAMN IT DRALTHI!

Now, even on Nightmare, the flying pancake isn't actually a threat, but endless ImRec missile spam is really annoying. AI doesn't need a missile lock to fire on Nightmare and every Dralthi pilot in the game will fire missiles at you. I can dodge them, but I prefer not spending two minutes at the start of each engagement flying in squiggles.

[LeHah]

I remember being really frustrated with the Paktahn because of their high armor ratings and the Ekapshi because they'd always swoop down really close to the planet's surface which means you had to risk a collision to get in a tight shot.

[Kaunisto]

WC1: Salthi cause it kamikazes into your face now and then
WC2: Grikath for nasty firepower, SO2: those Sabre/Morningstar things (is that a bug of some sort or are those supposed to be Sabres modified To Morningstar?)
WC3: Sorthak
WCP: Devil Ray
P1: confed ships
P2: Skull
Academy: Wraith

[Chaosbringer]

WC1: the rapiers.
WC2: Grikath.
WC3: Paktahn, they took forever to die...
WC4: mmm, i'd say dragons.
P1: none
WCP: Mantas, really annoying

[Highball]

Krants ... you know why I hate Krants? They are such a piece of crap fighter. 2 laser cannons, some shields, and a little bit of armor. They only can beat you in massive groups. On top of that, it seems to take more hits than a firk-ding-blasted Hhriss or Gratha to take out. I don't know how it can take so many danged full gun blasts and still keep going.

[Ilanin]

This seems as good a place as any to comment on how I'm discovering WC3 to be an entirely different game on Nightmare. When the AI is allowed to use its burners it gets a lot more competent at flying the lighter ships. The Vaktoth, meanwhile, suffers greatly without the superior AI it benefits from on Ace - and the sluggish turn rate and broad profile are exposed, making it easy prey by comparison.

WC3 ship annoyingness factor (Ace): Strakha > K'Ha'Haf > Darket > Dralthi > Sorthak > Ekapshi > Paktahn > Vaktoth

WC3 ship annoyingness factor (Nightmare): Strakha > Vaktoth > Paktahn >>> Dralthi = Draket
(I'll be meeting the K'Ha'Haf tomorrow I guess, but not expecting much trouble).

[frostytheplebe]

I'm sorry, I still say the Sorthak takes it for me. You see the armor shed right off of it and IT IS STILL UNDAMAGED! I get it's shields down, hit it where it hurts and it still keeps on coming!

[ChrisReid]

I thought the Sorthak made a fairly big target, and you tend to face it with a beefier ship. It's not extremely well armed, so you can tend to pound it for a while. Meanwhile, the game puts you up against Corvettes fairly often, and dogfighting around its big tail gun is a pain.

[Oggy]

It all depends what ship I am flying to be honest,
WC1 - Salthi vs Scimitar, hunt in packs, they are too quick and I can't put enough damage out in a single headone pass to take more than one out.
And the rapier in the secret missions, just outclasses the raptor I was in, I ran circles around the gwenhyvar to get them to crash into it, I had no chance in a standup fight.

WC2 - Grikath, rear turret is a pain

WCIII -

Originally Posted by ChrisReid

I thought the Sorthak made a fairly big target, and you tend to face it with a beefier ship. It's not extremely well armed, so you can tend to pound it for a while. Meanwhile, the game puts you up against Corvettes fairly often, and dogfighting around its big tail gun is a pain.

I am going to have to disagree with you there Chris and go with the sorthak too, the quad meson blaster turret on the rear is a pain, frontal attack was difficult because of the amount of fire power it can salvo onto you, and on a craft that can shelton slide (Arrow) you will be there for ages plinking away as you can't deal out enough damage. To be fair though the Thud was good for cracking it, but I always seemed to take damage from the damn rear turret.
I can't remember if you fight it once you've got the excalibur?
Oh, and the Kilrathi rock fighter, on high difficulties it drops mines in your face when you are tailing it, I had a few nasty suprises there.

WCIV - Cloaking Arrows, or the Bearcat, because it was so fast, and possibly the excalibur when you are in the confed jamming field that lowers your shields.

WC: P - I'll go with the Skate clusters, blow it up and it splits into 3 ships.

[Ilanin]

Originally Posted by ChrisReid

I thought the Sorthak made a fairly big target, and you tend to face it with a beefier ship. It's not extremely well armed, so you can tend to pound it for a while. Meanwhile, the game puts you up against Corvettes fairly often, and dogfighting around its big tail gun is a pain.

Yeah, this is my opinion. The (nightmare) Sorthak is a bit more dangerous than the Vaktoth due to more firepower, that's about it. A T-bolt can outmaneuvre it and the rear turret is nowhere near as accurate as that on the Paktahn, so tailing is less of a problem. An Arrow can just fly rings around it, and it doesn't bother me that it'll take ages to kill - plinking away while Shelton sliding is fun. Also you never encounter Sorthaks in great numbers, and being heavily outnumbered is normally the worst problem.

Originally Posted by Oggy

Oh, and the Kilrathi rock fighter, on high difficulties it drops mines in your face when you are tailing it, I had a few nasty suprises there.

I recall it doing this on Ace too. You really don't need to get that close, it's not as if the thing is particularly fast or maneuverable.